Sciatica Relief: Why Traditional Treatments Fail & What Works Differently | Dean Volk

Leigh Brandon (00:01) Dean, welcome to Be the Paint, Dean Volk, MPT (00:01) Get it out. Leigh Brandon (00:02) great to have you on the show. Dean Volk, MPT (00:04) Thank you very much, my friend. I’m looking forward to um speaking with you and um I appreciate you having me on the podcast. Leigh Brandon (00:10) Yeah, And Dean, I always like to start at the beginning. Can you take us through your journey, starting with what motivated you to become a physical therapist? Dean Volk, MPT (00:22) that’s a long story, but I’ll cut it down short. Alright, well I was a junior in college. I was at a Bible school in um Wheaton Il uh in Wheaton, Illinois, and I figured, all right, I will be I will get a degree in what their strength is. I had started out in um business and accounting. Accounting didn’t really sit well with me. And when I started in the business courses I realized It’s just basic business. And no matter what I get into, I’m gonna have to learn it anyway. So halfway through my junior year, this is gonna sound strange to some people, but I was just praying, going, God, what do you want from my life? Physical therapy popped into my head. I had no idea what a physical therapist did, to be perfectly honest. I had been never had an injury that I needed to see a physical therapist for. And um I called my folks and I just said, Look, I’m trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life And my mom said, Have you ever thought of physical therapy? And I went, Where did that come from? And she was um taking somebody to physical therapy and every time she did, she saw the people and thought of me. And she said, They they’re just like Dean. And I said, Well, this is weird. So um started down the physical therapy route. had to get all my sciences out of the way during summer school just because I didn’t take my physics, my biochemistry and all these different things. And that summer all I did was summer school um with sciences. Then I went back to school and got basically a minor in biology to get all my classes out of the way so I can graduate. And got into PT school on my first try. Actually got accepted the second day that school started. There were a couple dropouts and I was sort of on the waiting list and I got in. So that’s how I got into physical therapy. Leigh Brandon (02:25) Mm. And w where did you where did you study? Dean Volk, MPT (02:28) I studied at Northern Arizona University. I was one of the first classes that was offered a master’s degree back in the late eighties. Leigh Brandon (02:38) Cool. And Dean Volk, MPT (02:38) So Leigh Brandon (02:39) how how long did your degree take? Dean Volk, MPT (02:41) it was a three year program and came out with a master’s degree in physical therapy. That was nineteen ninety two. Leigh Brandon (02:50) Okay. And then what happened what happened next once you graduated? Dean Volk, MPT (02:54) Um took a job and um within a year they asked me if I wanted to open a clinic for them in the area of the um Scottsdale, Arizona Valley region where I was living. And I said sure and they said, Find a location, how do you want it built out? So basically it felt like it was my own clinic. I was obviously working for another um owner, but I I took it on as if it was mine. I worked there for about ten years and then moved on because there were just some issues with me owning the the place that I actually started for them. So that was in Scottsdale, Arizona, worked for about two more years and then in 2004 moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I opened three different clinics in that area in the Concord, Harrisburg, North Carolina, and Fort Mill, South Carolina. sold everything in twenty twenty twenty twenty um and moved to California in twenty twenty one. Now I’m assuming you’re asking the journey that got me into the sciatica. In twenty eighteen I was going to courses and learning from backgurus and sciatica specialists. And it was all repackaged of repackaging of the same thing. You gotta do the press-ups and if that doesn’t work, you gotta do the knee to chest pulls. And the different exercises and the different things that they were doing were so extremely similar that it was it was basically the same thing that everybody was doing. And in my clinical years, I was getting about 15 to 20% of my sciatica clients achieving long-term relief. Otherwise they’d be coming back six weeks, four months later, or definitely within a year, they’d be coming back with the same exact problem. So I would do what I was taught and I would do the same exact thing. Being the guy, obviously, the people who were getting the long term relief were those ones who were listening to me and actually doing what I told them. The ones who weren’t must not have been listening to me very well. But they just kept coming back. Excuse me. Till I realized maybe they weren’t the problem and I was and the approach that I was taking was the problem. And that’s what it turned out to be. In the early 2000 2007 2008 area I stumbled into a course that started treating and or started teaching me things the exact opposite approach of what I was doing. And I thought, wow, this is strange. Taking everything that I learned, doing a 180 degree opposite turnaround, and seeing how it would work. So honest truth I’m driving back to my clinics on a Sunday night after this course was a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And I’m thinking, how can I treat my clients 180 degrees opposite of what I’ve been doing without them thinking I’m either mistreating them now or I was mistreating them before? So thought popped into my head, why don’t you take the first person who comes in who you’ve never seen before, treat them this way and just see what happens. If it doesn’t work, hey, you’ve got everything, all your other tools in the tool chest. That doesn’t mean you’re gonna get your flexibility back, your your function back, your stamina back. It’s gonna take much longer than eight to ten weeks. I said, but let’s see what we can do for you. He said, by the way, don’t touch it, it’s on fire. And his knee was literally locked at about a 30 degree angle and he hobbled in. So I s basically gave him two things that I learned from that past weekend. Did everything a hundred eighty degrees opposite of what I normally had him do a couple trunk rotations and leg lifts on his good leg. That was it. And then he started jumping and walking and jogging and sprinting around my clinic. He goes, My knee, it doesn’t hurt at all. Can I go play soccer? And I said, no, you need to go back to the doctor. So he walks out of the clinic. I literally dialed the number of the gentleman who taught the course. And I said, Tom, you’re not gonna believe what happened. He goes, What’s this? What happened, Dean? And I told him and he just started laughing. He said, Dean, welcome to my world. And I said, Um, you gotta tell me what happened. He goes, Look, I’ve got clients coming in. Everybody’s your guinea pig. Just try this stuff and see what happens. And so as I started trying this with my sciatica clients, who I was always struggling with for my entire career, they started loving the exercises because they were pain-free. They I was working the opposite side of their body. They weren’t coming back nearly as often and they were telling me how they were controlling their symptoms on their own and they hadn’t had pain. And my my success rate that was fifteen to twenty percent literally jumped to eighty to eighty-five percent overnight for long-term relief for my sciatica clients. And I realized I’m on to something here. And I’ve been tweaking that my program, tweaking the way I do things to be able to teach people who are dealing with sciaticum And usually I see them after they have failed four, five, or six other treatment approaches, a lot of times multiple physical therapists, multiple chiropractors, multiple medications, injections, radio frequency ablasions, and oftentimes even surgery. And those are the people who find me sort of out of desperation at their wits’ end, sort of, Dean, you’re my last resort. And I’m like, and I hate to hear that, but let’s get down to business. And my success rate. now is about 95 to 97% success rate with long-term relief. So that’s a long answer to your question, but hopefully that answers it. Leigh Brandon (08:57) Yeah, definitely. What was the what was the three-day course that you did? Dean Volk, MPT (09:02) It was a three-day course, it was called Total Motion Release by a gentleman who developed it. His name is Tom Delonzo Baker. He’s a good friend of mine now. And it it changed my life. He he literally started the course by saying, Everything you’ve done in physical therapy, I want you to um I’m gonna how did he say it? I w I wanna get it right. I want you to forget about everything you’ve learned in physical therapy school because I want to give you a different perspective. And I had been to some crazy courses in the past with muscle energy type things where people sort of hover their hands over you and um f flick the energy you get into an outlet and then pull energy from an outlet and and that’s just out of my realm of understanding and thinking. So I just I that’s what I was kind of expecting here. And as he was talking, I I’m not a shy person, so I would raise my hand and say, but Tom, we were taught this and this. How does this line up with it? Something simple like if you have a tight muscle on one side of your body, why are you trying to stretch it? And I’d raise my hand and say, Because that’s what we’re taught. When something’s tight, you want to pull it to relax it, to try to get it to release. And I’m sorry, getting my little a little prop here that I keep. And I started thinking about it. So when you have something that’s tight and aggravated, the way you get it to loosen up is to tighten it more. And now when I think about it, I go, that doesn’t make sense at all, because where in life do you take something that’s tight, tighten it up more, and it loosens? Obviously only the human body does that. But I’m finding that when you stretch something that’s loose on the opposite side, the body part that’s tight actually loosens up. So you can actually loosen up your right tight hamstring by stretching your left hamstring. Leigh Brandon (11:11) Interesting. Dean Volk, MPT (11:12) It is. It and it messed with my mind. Leigh Brandon (11:15) Hmm. It it it reminded me a little bit, although I know it’s different, of um muscle activation techniques. Which Dean Volk, MPT (11:22) Yes. Leigh Brandon (11:22) is working on the other side, but not the other side of the body, the other side of the body part. Dean Volk, MPT (11:26) Right, instead of the biceps you use a triceps. Exactly. Yeah, and this totally was messing up my brain because it just didn’t fit. But literally, like I told you about that first client who came in, I was it it was jaw-dropping results, and I’ve had probably twelve to fifteen people who responded that quickly. to this technique. Everybody else it it takes a little bit of time. You gotta train them to learn how to find their imbalances and then work the side of the body that’s looser, more comfortable, less restricted, which frees up the side that’s restricted and um sore. And it it’s a process. Leigh Brandon (12:14) Yeah. I’ll come back to that in a moment. The um the the soccer player that you mentioned what was it a muscle tear that he had or was it sciatica? Dean Volk, MPT (12:24) it wasn’t sciatic. I the doctor had diagnosed it with a quadriceps tendon tear. That’s a um tendon right above the patella. So instead of the patellar tendon below the kneecap, this is the the tendon that hooks the quadriceps muscles onto the top of the patella. That’s what it was diagnosed as. Obviously I didn’t heal a tear. It was mimicking a quadriceps tendon tear. But he had literally been like that for two weeks. And he just he he was he was more shocked than I was, I think. But it it just totally changed the way I did therapy from that point on. Leigh Brandon (13:07) Mm. So do do you know what was actually wrong with him? Dean Volk, MPT (13:14) I actually don’t because I never explored it with the doctor because what happened was the doctor called me two days later. He said, Dean, do you remember soccer player? I’ll call him Josh. I said, Yes I do. He goes, What did you do to his right knee? I said, Do you really want to know? He said yes. I said m doctor Ward, I had him trunk rotate to his easier side and And then I had him do leg lifts with three pounds resistance on his left leg. He said, No, Dean, what did you do to his right knee? I said, Doctor Ward, I’m telling you, this is all I did. And he hung up on me. So I was gonna try to find out what exactly what were the tests that he did because I didn’t even do a full evaluation. I just sort of went, you know what, let’s just try this and see what happens. Mm-hmm. What I believe happens is this is that if you have a restriction on one side of your body, I what I was taught in school is hey, you know what, if you’re tight and sore on your shoulder, I I’ve heard I’m assuming you’ve heard of like a frozen shoulder, where people can’t lift their arm up and they can’t turn it outward. What we learn in school is we’ve got to mobilize, push that shoulder around, try to force some of that movement, obviously to within patients tolerance, although some of us have liked to push beyond their tolerance just to try to unfreeze it, unstick it. That’s how I um treated those clients for years. Now what I do is I work the exact opposite side because here’s what I believe happens. As you’re working the good side, your body’s relaxed, your body’s calm. What happens when you have pain is things tense up. Your nervous system just starts guarding because it wants to protect. Your brain’s going, nope, it’s painful, so we’re gonna stop. When you’re working the good side, your brain gets the message, hey, this is okay, this is safe, and it has a carryover effect to the opposite side. And that’s how I’ve been treating people for the last 18 years with significantly more success, um, long longer-term relief. And clients are actually much more likely to do their exercises and to follow through because when you give them things that are easy, though we’re always looking for the easy way out. So instead of forcing something that’s painful, we’re moving something that’s comfortable and easy. And it allows them and gives them confidence to be able to retest the opposite side that was painful. And they’re shocked when there’s more movement, less pain. And I wish it was just as simple as, hey, if you got a bad shoulder, you just move the opposite shoulder. But it can be anywhere in the body. Because when your body has pain, the natural response of anybody’s body is there’s going to be compensations to try to protect from that pain. So the area around the pain is going to tighten down by itself, which means those muscles are now not functioning like they normally do. Which means other muscles have to take up the slack. And I always use the example of somebody walking around on a badly sprained ankle. Their head, neck, and shoulders are bobbing and weaving because the ankles around the muscles are doing this to protect it. Plus, it’s painful, so you’re hopping to the other side, short step on the pain side, long step on the non painful side. So your whole body is compensating number one to protect the pain, but number two to help you to continue to function as. best as possible with as minimal pain as possible. So for someone with a bad sprained ankle, if you’re just looking at treating that ankle, you’re missing all the other compensations that are going on in the body. And if you don’t take care of those compensations, you’re gonna have all this extra stress and tension in your body, which doesn’t allow the area of problem to be able to release and heal as quickly and as effectively. Leigh Brandon (17:43) Does that make Dean Volk, MPT (17:43) Does that make sense? Leigh Brandon (17:44) Yeah, it sounds to me like you you’re getting bas basically you’re getting a neuroplastic response. Dean Volk, MPT (17:50) You are. Leigh Brandon (17:51) you’re training the brain to say, look, this area’s safe, it’s it’s okay to move it. Dean Volk, MPT (17:57) Exactly, because so many times and I think you even had a podcast on um why pain isn’t always about tissue damage. It might be initially, but once the tissue heals, if you still have pain, why is that? And it’s because your brain I I the the example that I always use is if you’re in your kitchen and you reach for something no matter where you are in your kitchen and you feel something hot, the brain instinct immediately is to withdraw the hand. Doesn’t matter that you weren’t near the stove, it doesn’t matter that the stove wasn’t on. Your brain knows heat in kitchen, boom, watch out, you’re gonna get burnt. In the same way, someone with sciatica, if for say weeks, maybe even months, it was painful to bend over because your disc was hitting your nerve, your brain knows it’s painful when you bend over. When you bend over, whether the disc is still aggravated, whether the nerve is still aggravated, your brain’s gonna give you the message, it’s painful. So you need to retrain. Interesting, right before this podcast, my son said, Hey, what what’s the podcast on? And I said, You know, the gentleman I’m talking to is more about the whole pain cycle and more than just hey, physical pain. He said, Oh. And he was telling me how when he was in grad school, he he was dealing with nausea and insatiable um in um satiation issues with um eating and he said, you know what I had to do? I had to keep telling my brain, I’m not nauseous. This is gonna be good for me He goes, It took months, but I’m over that now. At for years now. But he said, I realized I was in a cycle that every time I ate I would get nauseous no matter what it was. And he had gone through lots of different testing. Um, all these GI docs were giving him this, dietitians were giving him that. And he finally realized, all right, you know what, I’m in a cycle now, and I have to tell myself I’m not nauseous. And as he did that, he said he noticed it started going down slowly, and it took several months, and he was over it. So our brains are powerful. Leigh Brandon (20:13) Yeah, it’s amazing. Yeah, it’s amazing how how powerful the brain is over over the body. And it’s ultimately there to protect us, right? But often Dean Volk, MPT (20:22) It is. Leigh Brandon (20:22) often it it kind of in roundabout away has a negative effect, but you know, it keeps us Dean Volk, MPT (20:27) It totally can. I you know, I mean I I’m a huge believer in the things that you focus on, that’s gonna be your reality. Uh real simple, same son. Um he was looking for a n Toy Toyota Highlander when he was in college. And he said, Dad, can you keep your eye out for a decent decently used um inexpensive Toyota Highlander? And at that time in my career, um I had my clinics in Charlotte, but we were living in Charleston, so I would be driving down every weekend to be with my family. And every car on the road, in the two and a half hour drive, was a Highlander. I I saw Highlanders everywhere. And I was thinking, this is crazy. I I never noticed how many Highlanders until we bought him a Highlander. Then they disappeared. And so what you focus on is gonna be your reality. Leigh Brandon (21:28) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. So getting back to sciatica, now Dean Volk, MPT (21:33) Yes. Leigh Brandon (21:34) as you know, you know, the the causes is often put down to discernations, nerve compressions, particularly around around the lumbar spine region. F from your experience of helping people with sciatica, what what are some of the biggest misconceptions about what actually causes the pain? The biggest misconception, um Dean Volk, MPT (21:53) Biggest misconception. Um, if you have a bulging or herniated disc or degenerative disc or degenerative spine, that you are doomed for life. This is what you have to accept because so many people have failed so many treatments that their whole mind is focused on their pain, their life is built around what they cannot do, and their life gets smaller and it shrinks. And they accept that as part of who they are. And it turns into the whole brain and the focus thing. But one of the biggest misconceptions is that if physical therapy didn’t work, no physical therapy would work. If chiropractor didn’t work, no chiropractic treatments will work. And that treatments are just sort of repackaged the same way and the same thing. And that that’s what I’m fighting against with most people. Not fighting, but that’s the biggest obstacle I have because people become skeptical. And why shouldn’t they? Everybody’s a specialist and a guru and an expert nowadays. And they’ve been through four or five different physical therapists before me. It’s like, what makes you think you’re different? Leigh Brandon (23:09) Mm. Yeah. I mean it’s it’s interesting because um I don’t know if you’re aware, but back in two thousand thirteen I woke up one morning and I went to get out of bed and thought, Oh, I can’t move. I was stuck. Dean Volk, MPT (23:23) no. Leigh Brandon (23:23) I was l I couldn’t I couldn’t flex the spine. I thought this is strange and then my lower back felt a bit sore and I literally couldn’t get out of bed and I actually had a little trick from when I was a teenager. I used to play a lot of cricket. And the first game of the season I’d play I’d play on the Saturday and I’d be so sore on Sunday morning I literally couldn’t get out of bed. I used to roll out of bed. That’s the only way I could get out. And so I thought, maybe maybe I need to roll out of bed. So I rolled out of bed, got on the floor. Um, as I was rolling, I realized my entire left leg was completely numb. You know, pain in my lower back, pins and needles, and right down to my toes. And obviously, from my training, I thought, oh, that’s my L four and L5 dermatomes that are you know symptomatic. Dean Volk, MPT (24:12) That’s impressive. Leigh Brandon (24:13) And so I thought again uh I’ll do some Mackenzie press-ups. That will that will help centralize the discs. Did did those no didn’t do anything. I thought, hmm, this is this is a bit more serious than I thought. And then I thought, right, I’ll do some side glides to try and centralize the discs. I managed to get up on my feet. Again, luckily I knew how to do that without flexing the spine. Some side glides, and I’m thinking, wow, nothing’s changed, like this is a bit more serious than I thought. Basically, what happened was I had a complete herniation at L45 and a bulge at L5S1. I had a dropped foot, so I had pain in the lower back, numbness, pins and needles, shooting pains. Yeah, I couldn’t walk, couldn’t put underwear on, couldn’t sit down. and I thought, well, I’m in trouble here. But I guess the fortunate thing at that point was for the previous twelve years I’ve been helping people overcome that exact thing. Right? So the thing that was really advantageous for me was I know you can heal from that. So even though my progress was slow, it took me twenty two months to get back to playing tennis. Um Dean Volk, MPT (25:32) Oof. Leigh Brandon (25:35) I always had this in my in the back of my head, I always had but I’m gonna get better. Right? There was there was no doubt. There was no doubt in my head I was gonna get better. and The one thing w initially what I did suffer from was a bit of an identity crisis. Right? Because initi I remember I was I th I I wanted to get an MRI just to make sure it wasn’t a quarter of quina. And I Dean Volk, MPT (26:03) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (26:03) I mean it was only one leg, so I knew that was unlikely, but I just wanted to make sure. And I because I couldn’t I couldn’t sit down, so I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t get in a taxi. The only way I could get to the hospital was to get two buses. And I remember walking down my street where I I lived in London at the time. I say walked, um, it wasn’t really walking, it was one step, Dean Volk, MPT (26:24) Right. Hobble. Leigh Brandon (26:26) one step and drag the other leg, one step, drag the other leg. And I went w as as I’m walking down the road, I remember thinking, wow, like who am I now? Because I’ve always had this identity of being like, you know, very sporty, very athletic, someone Dean Volk, MPT (26:45) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (26:45) that lifts weights, plays tennis. And now I can’t do any of those things. And the other thing was, I remember thinking if an eight year old girl attacks me right now, I wouldn’t even be able to defend myself. Right. So even though, you know, I I grew up in quite a rough part of London, so I’ve always been a bit street smart. And if worse comes to the worst, I can sprint really fast, right? So if I’m ever in trouble, so I’ve never I’ve never kind of worried about myself. Dean Volk, MPT (27:15) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (27:16) So I always thought if I get into real trouble, I can always, you know, I can always run away. And um so I I can really empathise with someone whose identity becomes their pain or their injury. Dean Volk, MPT (27:30) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (27:30) It was only because of my previous training and experience of helping others that I was able to be in that mindset of, but I’m gonna get better. Right. Dean Volk, MPT (27:38) Right. Leigh Brandon (27:39) And that was probably the most important thing, you know, looking back. Yeah. Dean Volk, MPT (27:41) Absolutely, yeah, because if you’re so focused on the pain, no matter what you’re doing, you’re you’re gonna be rating your pain. Is it is it better, is it worse? Instead of functioning and living, Leigh Brandon (27:55) Yeah, absolutely. I mean it was Dean Volk, MPT (27:55) mindset is huge. Leigh Brandon (27:57) It was a very slow process, so I had to stay patient and be persistent. But um, you know, I mean that was what thirteen and a half years ago. You Dean Volk, MPT (28:08) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (28:09) know, I’m nearly sixty and I’m as functional as when I was twenty. Now. That’s Dean Volk, MPT (28:13) That’s awesome. Leigh Brandon (28:14) So which shows you what is possible. Um, you know, if Dean Volk, MPT (28:17) Absolutely. Leigh Brandon (28:18) if you kinda if you kinda know what you’re doing, right? Dean Volk, MPT (28:20) Yes. Leigh Brandon (28:21) Um so yeah, so that’s That’s really important. Um so so with sciatica, so generally it’s on one side of of the body, it affects one limb most of the time. Dean Volk, MPT (28:35) Most of the time, yes. Leigh Brandon (28:38) and I from my experience the most common places where the sciatic nerve might be irritated is either the lumbar spine. Also I I guess the piriformis muscle is another Dean Volk, MPT (28:52) Piriformous muscle is right now I believe it’s probably one of the most overdiagnosed problems in the world when it comes to sciatica. Because people for true piriformous syndrome, the sciatic nerve has to be piercing through the piriformous muscle. The sciatic nerve has to pierce through the piriformous muscle. And that is only in about 15 to 20% of the population. Um now they’ve actually changed some of the terminology to make it deep gluteal syndrome or gluteal syndrome because now they’re not sure if it’s the piriformis or not. So the piriformis gets a lot of credit and it’s not necessarily due to the piriformis muscle, it’s just that hey, you got butt pain and it travels down the leg? Okay, you have piriformis syndrome without truly finding out if that’s the problem. Leigh Brandon (29:50) Yeah. Yeah. And of course there’s you know, there’s other external hip rotators. That’s n that’s one of one of many. It’s one of many, right? Dean Volk, MPT (29:54) Absolutely. Yes. Leigh Brandon (29:56) Yes. Um So if someone comes to you with let’s say let’s say let’s say I came to you in in the condition I was in thirteen years ago, what Dean Volk, MPT (30:09) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (30:10) what would have been your approach with me at that time? Dean Volk, MPT (30:14) thirteen years ago I would have been doing yeah, I I would be doing similar to what I’m doing now with a little bit of modification, but what I have people do is I always have them test right side versus left side no matter what I’m doing, whether it be a hamstring stretch, whether it be a nerve flossing or gliding, whether it be a trunk rotation, an arm lift, because I wanna find where the imbalances are biggest in their body. Usually with sciatica, leg raises are massively out of balance because you have pain in one side and you don’t want to lift it and the other side you can lift up very easily. So what I do is I want to start where the person is most out of balance and try to balance them out. Because as I said before, when the body compensates and things get out of balance right side versus left side, that adds undue tension and stress inside your body. that keeps everything locked up. So most of the time I’m either working a trunk rotation or a leg lift or a piriformist stretch first with most people. Where I find the biggest imbalance, that’s where I start. And I work the opposite side, however many sets, however long a hold, whatever I feel that the person can handle. And then we go back and reassess, did it make a difference? Did that straight leg right get up higher? Is there less pain? Are they feeling less tension? Anything positive that we can find? If it improves, we repeat on the good side the same exact thing. Until the opposite side, the goal is to get it balanced. But many times it’s all right, we’re gonna stop where the progress plateaus. Because we don’t necessarily want to aggravate the good side and overuse the good side so much. But that side gets sore. Leigh Brandon (32:10) So sorry, I I might have missed one really important part there. I was I was thinking ahead, but Dean Volk, MPT (32:16) Okay, no problem. Leigh Brandon (32:17) so let’s say I’ve got this sciatic symptom on my left leg, I come in, you do um leg raise on both sides, so lying supine I’m guessing. Dean Volk, MPT (32:29) It can be supine, you can do it seated. I can actually do it standing. But wherever the person is most comfortable, if they have pain in sitting, I’ll have them lay down. If they’re more comfortable um sitting than laying down, I’ll have them seated. If both of those are painful and they’re more comfortable standing, I’ll try it standing. Leigh Brandon (32:45) Okay. So you’d literally do leg raise to assess first. Dean Volk, MPT (32:50) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (32:50) Mm-hmm. And then was it this is the bit I missed. You would then have them do a few repetitions on the good side of leg raising or w was it something different? Dean Volk, MPT (33:00) No, you would you would have them do that exact same thing that you tested where the imbalance where the biggest imbalance was found, yes. Leigh Brandon (33:08) Yeah. Okay. So really what you’re attempting to do is to train the brain to say, look, this movement is safe. It’s not there’s not really a problem with it. Dean Volk, MPT (33:16) Absolutely. Leigh Brandon (33:17) Gotcha. Gotcha. And you mentioned nerve flossing so you might do nerve flossing movements as well? Compared left and right. Dean Volk, MPT (33:25) Yes, but hardly ever do it on the painful side because basically you’re taking a nerve that’s irritated trying to do this to it and it’s sort of I I tell people if this side of my head was sore and I went to a doctor and the doctor said, Dean, I can fix that. You want to do this twenty-five times, five times a day, come back in two weeks most people would look and say, That’s insanity. And I say, So what’s the difference between doing that Leigh Brandon (33:37) If this side of my head was sore and I went to a doctor, and Dean Volk, MPT (33:53) and taking a massage gun and pounding on your painful bum or s trying to stretch your painful side. Aren’t you basically doing this to yourself? And people go, Well, I guess I am. Leigh Brandon (34:08) I Dean Volk, MPT (34:10) So I don’t I don’t want to further irritate something that’s irritated. I want to do something the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, when I work soft tissue work now on people, if someone’s got a really bad tight right upper trap, first I poke around, test it, find where the most tender spots are, and then I go to the left side and work it and work it and work it nice and steady and deep. do that for about five, seven minutes and then I go back to the affected side and they say, Well you’re not pushing as hard. Okay, I could push harder. But it definitely loosens up, softens up, and is much less painful. Leigh Brandon (34:49) Interesting. So with with sciatica specifically, would it always be a leg raise type movement that you’d start with? Dean Volk, MPT (34:58) Not always, it all depends. Um, I always try to find the biggest imbalance first. My wife you I I kind of smiled when you said in two thousand thirteen or something that you got out of bed and you couldn’t move. About um eight months after I started my online business with this in two thousand eighteen, um we woke up one morning in May or early June and my wife said said it hurts from my butt to my heel and a and I laughed because I thought with all the people she has heard say that. She was just I guess I had been neglecting her or something. I was like, no, but I but I laughed, thinking it was a it was a funny joke until she stood up and started shuffling like a ninety year old woman. I said, You’re serious? She goes, Why would I lie about this? And I asked if I can help. And she said, Not right now. But around noon she finally said, Alright, I I can’t take this. And what was wild is I found her biggest imbalance in her shoulders. And I it kind of makes sense if you know a little bit about biomechanics. Every time you take a step with your right leg, your left arm goes forward, you take and so there’s gonna be some cross patterning in your body. So I I’ve actually found a lot of times when people have had shoulder issues on one side, their opposite side is often the sciatic side. Or it can be on the same side just because everything on that side is so tight that the sciatic nerve finally just goes, I can’t handle this anymore. Leigh Brandon (36:32) Yeah, I mean that’s what you’re describing there with the cross is the anterior and posterior oblique systems or slings that they’re sometimes called. Mm-hmm. Okay, so you might do arm raises, even if it’s sciatica. Dean Volk, MPT (36:45) Yes. I I’ve taken care of people who needed total knee replacements by having them trunk rotate to their easier side. Not always, but it I’ve I’ve actually had well over a dozen clients who were scheduled for total knee replacements find relief when we balanced out their trunk rotation. And they said, How did that work? And I said, Well when you’re walking on one side limping it’s gonna the way your trunk rotates, every step you take is going to be affected, which is going to affect the ab the ability of the trunk to rotate when it’s gone on for so long. If you free this up, what you’re actually doing is also balancing out your quad hamstrings and so they’re not pulling the same way on the knee and it’s not causing the same pain. Leigh Brandon (37:38) Yeah, you have more more efficient gait pattern as well. Yeah. Dean Volk, MPT (37:41) Yes. Leigh Brandon (37:44) So so you there’s leg raise, there’s arm raise, there’s spinal rotation. Any other tests that you use? Dean Volk, MPT (37:53) There’s lots of different tests. And and in different positions too. I mean do you want me to give you my whole Leigh Brandon (37:56) Right. Dean Volk, MPT (37:58) program? Okay. No, those are the basic ones that I do and I they actually um those are the three that I believe I have in a book that I put together just sort of as an introductory so people can say, Hey, test this and see if it works. Leigh Brandon (38:18) Okay, so that you’ve got a whole battery of potential tests to do comparing side to side. Dean Volk, MPT (38:23) You got the whole body to work on. Yep. Leigh Brandon (38:26) Even o even though It’s it’s the sciatic nerve. Obviously, I mean the nerves obviously run from your toes to your brain, right? Right through your body. Dean Volk, MPT (38:33) Exactly. Leigh Brandon (38:36) and obviously a lot of a lot of the nerves is connective tissue as well, so you know uh Dean Volk, MPT (38:41) There’s so much involved and a lot of it actually depends on the way the person personally compensates for pain. And that can be so variant one person to the next, depending on how the person was raised, what their protective mechanisms are. Everybody everybody’s a little bit different. So so many people say, Dean, tell me the exercise to do. And I go, I would, but I would be just like everybody else and I’d be Guessing, I said, you can always do the the press up exercise and if it doesn’t work, move to another one. Uh most of the people who I deal with, they show me the exercise and I say, Do you realize if you type in Google generic sciatic exercises, you you’ve done them all. And generic exercises are just that. They’re generic. That’s what everybody learns for sciatic problems. But it doesn’t address you personally. And that it drives me crazy when people put out, hey, here are the three best exercises for sciatic and with sixty seconds your pain’s gonna be gone. It you know what, it might help three to five percent of people. And the per person who’s making that video is happy with that. I’m going, Well, what about the other ninety five to ninety seven percent of people who are not getting that relief? And so when people ask me for exercise, I go, I I I can’t just guess and give. I have to do an assessment or I have to teach you how to assess yourself. Because my big focus and what I love doing is teaching people how to assess themselves so that they don’t need me anymore. My programs are all focused on all right, I want to teach you how to assess yourself. It’s a step-by-step process. It’s not step it’s not the same steps for everybody. And even though I have an online course, it’s a do-it-yourself course. People say, but you’re giving out the same exercises. I said, I’m giving out the same movements, but you’re the ones who’s gonna have to decide which movements are out of balance, which moves best, and which how how to exercise it. Is it just a stretch that helps it? Is it a bouncing motion that moves that helps it? Is it just a slow, steady motion? So there’s different ways to do all the different exercises and movements that I give. But it’s sort of a process that I take people through so that they can learn on their own body what helps them. Leigh Brandon (41:13) Yeah. There’s a there’s an old saying, if you’re not assessing you’re guessing. Dean Volk, MPT (41:18) Exactly. And I and I I would rather not guess wrong on somebody and have them be so upset that oh Dean Dean stuff doesn’t work. It’s like I I didn’t get to assess you. And you don’t know how to assess yourself so you don’t know if you did the exercise correctly. Leigh Brandon (41:37) Yeah, yeah. So there are many people living with persistent sciatica who have tried physiotherapy, chiropractic treatments, ejections, medication, they’ve even had surgery but yet they still have pain. Why do you believe these approaches sometimes fail to provide lasting relief and what might Practitioners be overlooking? Dean Volk, MPT (42:02) I think what primarily number one, what most people are overlooking, is the way somebody’s body compensates and the imbalances throughout the body that it causes. That’s the number one main reason why I believe sciatica comes back, whether it’s from a bulging disc, degenerate, whatever the underlying diagnosis was. If your body’s out of balance, you can get some temporary relief. But if you’re if you don’t address those imbalances, that extra tension and stress in your body is gonna wear your body down and the area that’s most susceptible in your body is gonna feel it. And I think that’s why sciatic keeps coming back because so many times the treatment approach, 99% of the time the preatment the treatment approach is focused on that painful side. And so just like doing this, what what’s crazy is if you have a sore head. You do this twenty five times. When you stop it actually feels better because you’re not pounding it anymore. So the comparison of the pounding to stopping, you go, Hey, maybe this works. But then after that compounding has a um compounding effect, it’s gonna come back in ten minutes, thirty minutes, an hour later. In the same way when you go and get some decompression done to your spine. Hey, you know what? It feels great while it’s happening, but yeah, you’re s you’re stretching and you you’re decompressing the spine. So you’re taking pressure off that nerve that’s irritated if it’s being caused by a disc. But then what happens when you stand back up? You’re not still decompressed, all of a sudden you’re compressing it all back down. That’s why people with disc issues suffer more significantly in the mornings because as they’re laying down at night, they’re decompressing. The only problem is as your spine is decompressing at night, what naturally happens is it absorbs more water because that’s what keeps disc healthy. And when you wake up first thing in the morning, that disc that might have been slightly bulged is slightly bulged more. And then you stand up and compress it. Now that disc bulge or herniation is larger than what it was when you went to sleep. And for the first twenty-five to fifty minutes. the water that was absorbed starts getting expelled so then it shrinks back to where the normal disk is. And so that’s why those people suffer more intensely in the mornings. Leigh Brandon (44:44) Yeah, it it’s interesting. I’m s uh I I always stand when I’m doing my podcast and just to just to reiterate the effects of the brain. So obviously I had my injury thirteen years ago. It took almost two years to heal. I wouldn’t say a hundred percent because I had numbness between my first and second toe for probably another four years after that. Dean Volk, MPT (45:08) Okay. Leigh Brandon (45:09) Now we’re talking about sciatica and I’m bringing up the old injury and I’m standing here and I can feel numbness between my first and second toe. That’s just my brain playing games with me, right? And I know there’s nothing Dean Volk, MPT (45:20) I believe so. Leigh Brandon (45:21) wrong. I know there’s nothing wrong, right? And Dean Volk, MPT (45:23) Right. Leigh Brandon (45:24) I and I’ll probably an hour after this, I’m sure it would be completely gone. But I just wanted to share that more with the audience because it just shows you how how important your brain is. Like literally the thought of The injury from thirteen years ago has created a symptom in my foot. Now I’m j I’m just standing still, right? I haven’t banged my foot. There’s nothing sharp on the floor. But I’m feeling numbness Dean Volk, MPT (45:48) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (45:50) between those two toes. It’s it’s just it’s just m my brain. My brain’s done that, right? But I’m not worried about it. I don’t think I’ve just redamaged the disc or, you know, done anything to my sciatic nerve. It’s just Dean Volk, MPT (46:03) Right. Leigh Brandon (46:03) my brain. Right. And I’ll be fine. It’s not it’s not an issue. But I just wanted to share that. Dean Volk, MPT (46:07) You will be. And the brain is powerful. Leigh Brandon (46:12) Yeah. So for someone listening who’s been struggling with sciatica for months or even years, what practical steps could they take today to begin improving their situation and how can they recognize when their symptoms require further medical investigation? Dean Volk, MPT (46:33) What I typically tell people and what what the um research shows is that the first bout of sciatica leaves in four to six weeks. Most people. If it lasts longer than four to six weeks, I guess that would be if it lasts longer than six weeks, that’s when you need to start giving it attention. If you’re going to a specialist or a a doctor, typically the normal medical model So what I tell people is initially if you want to try to start helping yourself, try gentle stretches to the opposite side. Everything that your therapist, chiropractor, trainer, doctor does, and if it’s not working, try doing it on the opposite side. A lot of the exercises are working both sides evenly, like a cat cow or the press-ups. And if you’re out of balance, working both sides evenly is not going to help balance out any imbalances. So, practically speaking, I tell people ice it to try to calm down the irritation. You can put some heat on it after the ice to try to increase some normal blood flow to the area to get some oxygen to try to help it if it is tissue damage or if it’s a nerve irritation from a disc. And those are practically speaking. The best thing you could possibly do is go to a website, sciaticaprooflab.com. That’s that is my free three-day treatment with me. You work with me one-on-one. It’s totally free, no strings attached, and I get to show you what my approach can do to try to let you know that you know what, there’s help around. That that to me that’s the best thing you can do. But I’m biased. Leigh Brandon (48:30) it makes sense. Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I’m you know, I’m open to learning new things and it it makes sense, you know, what you said. You know, you’re working on uh basically you’re working with neuroplastic pain, right? Mm-hmm. You’re retraining the brain. Um, which which makes complete sense. Um it’s interesting actually just a couple of weeks ago I actually went on a nerve course with active release techniques which uh was really interesting. I haven’t I haven’t yet had a sciatic client, although I have one that’s just booked in, which I’m gonna uh see in a couple of weeks. So that that will be interesting. Dean Volk, MPT (49:05) Awesome. What is it that you do? Hi I am so sorry. I know I should do my homework. I was listening to a lot of your podcasts, but I never went. Leigh Brandon (49:14) from. Yeah, so I I’ve got quite a varied background. So I originally came from an exercise background. So I studied with the Czech Institute for five and a half years. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Czech Institute. I’ve Dean Volk, MPT (49:26) Heard of Leigh Brandon (49:28) so a lot of what we learn is corrective and high performance exercise. So basically realigning the body. Ye year one, when I did my so it’s five and a half years I trained. Year one was actually lumbar spine pathology. Um Dean Volk, MPT (49:41) Okay. Leigh Brandon (49:42) which you know, I was actually helping a lot of people that similar to you, they’d been to see so many other people, nothing had worked. And so that’s where I got confidence when I had my own injury. I thought, well, I’ve helped so many other people with a similar condition. Um, so exercise also within the Czech Institute, we do we cover nutrition and lifestyle. So my perspective is, you know, the exercise movement side is like all structural, the nutrition lifestyle is metabolic, and there’s two other two other potential causes of of persistent pain. One is nervous system regulation, which is kind what kind of thing you’re working on. Dean Volk, MPT (50:26) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (50:26) So you’re training the brain to say actually you are safe, you can move through a wider range, you don’t need to protect yourself as much. Um and then the third is um working on the emotional body. So I I do something called the emotion code and the body code. So Dean Volk, MPT (50:43) Okay. Leigh Brandon (50:43) I try and work in all four, all four areas, but but I also do active release techniques. So I originally trained um manual therapy. it’s sport and remedial massage therapy. And then I went on to study active release techniques, which which I absolutely love. I think it’s it’s amazing. And it’s um again, it’s one of those things that never ceases to surprise me, a bit like your work. You know, Dean Volk, MPT (51:05) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (51:06) you get someone come in and they’re I’ve been to see a physio three times a week for a year and I’ve still got carpal tunnel syndrome and you do one treatment and they’re like, What did you just do to me? I I’ve had exactly the same thing said to me. And then just last week I had a soccer player, had plantar fasciitis. I had it as a kid, playing mainly from playing soccer. And it took me six to eight weeks to get rid of it. I did one treatment on him on Thursday. He played on Saturday and he played on s on Monday. And I thought he had no chance of playing on Saturday, but you know, ’cause he he couldn’t even yeah, he couldn’t even put any weight on his foot at all. Uh So I mean there’s lots there’s lots of good things out there. I don’t think there’s one way to do anything. And I’m and Dean Volk, MPT (51:52) Right. Leigh Brandon (51:53) I’m really interested in you know in what you do, but it does make it does make complete sense. Dean Volk, MPT (51:58) It doesn’t also, just so you know, I’m I don’t just work on the movements. I do do um some writing, expressive writing things and different breathing techniques to try to regulate things more. So I call it sort of the W whole holistic approach. It’s not a specific um holistic approach that people think about everything. I I do talk about diet, but th th those aren’t the areas of my specialty. ‘Cause most people by the time they see me have tried so many things that um they’re usually eating pretty much an anti inflammatory diet just because they learned, hey, if I have a lot of sugar and alcohol, uh it’s gonna flare me up. So by that by the time they get to me, it’s one of those, Dean, you’re my last resort and I I hate hearing that, but at the same time I understand. Leigh Brandon (52:47) Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s good it’s good to hear that, you know, your approach is relatively holistic. Dean Volk, MPT (52:52) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (52:53) Um yeah, I mean I don’t know I’m not gonna say I’ve definitely found direct correlations between diet or or metabolic issues with cytoker, but I’m sure that’s possible, you know. And what’s quite interesting, when I went to my general practitioner t to get an MRI referral, he said, um, I mean he did the most ridiculous assessment. He just ran his fingers down my spine and said, Oh yeah, I don’t think there’s anything wrong. If it was nothing wrong, I wouldn’t be here. Seriously, I wouldn’t be here. Dean Volk, MPT (53:26) Yeah, so Leigh Brandon (53:27) Um and he did look at me rather strange when he said, take a seat, Mr Brandon and I No, I can’t sit down. Dean Volk, MPT (53:32) No, thank you. Leigh Brandon (53:33) And he’s like, why not? I was like, well, let me explain. Um but then at the end of the appointment, he said, Yeah, I’ll give you a referral, but you’re gonna have to pay private. We know you w you we won’t run it through the oh no, sorry, he said we can we can do you uh an MRI through the National Health Service, but you have to wait four weeks. I was like, No, I’m here to have it done today. And he said, Well you’re gonna have to pay for it yourself. I said, Fine, I’ll pay for it myself. Um but he said oh I’m just gonna write you a prescription for painkillers and anti-inflammatories. I said, don’t bother. He said, What do you mean, don’t bother? I said, Well, I’m not going to take them. He said, What do you mean? And I said, Well, I I know if I flex my spine a certain amount, the pain goes through the roof, or if I rotate in a certain way, the pain goes through the roof. Which means I’m putting pressure on the disc that’s that’s putting pressure on the nerve, which is increasing the pain. So I want to know if I’m putting excess pressure Dean Volk, MPT (54:30) If I’m doing that. Leigh Brandon (54:31) on the disc, right? So why why would I want a number an important communication signal from my brain? And he kinda looked at me like I was really strange. He said, Well, I’m gonna write one anyway and I said, Well I’m not gonna take them. He said, Well I’ve as your doctor, I have to write them and I have to um I have to uh recommend that you take them. And I said, Okay fine, I understand, but just know that I’m not gonna take them. Right. And then he said, and by the way, you can’t fly for a month. And I said, I’m flying to Los An to San Diego next week. And he said, Well, as your doctor, I’m advising you not to. And I said, Well, I am going. Dean Volk, MPT (55:08) Wait a second, this is the doctor who said there’s nothing wrong with you. So there’s nothing wrong with you but you can’t fly for a month. Leigh Brandon (55:16) Yeah. I I Dean Volk, MPT (55:18) You gotta love it. Leigh Brandon (55:19) think I think he was probably checking for a spondylolysthesis. That’s the only thing I could think that he he was doing. Um but Dean Volk, MPT (55:28) And so you found you had the herniation and a bulge, did you say, on L five L four, five and L five S one? Leigh Brandon (55:35) fully herniated and L f L five S one Dean Volk, MPT (55:36) Hm. So you’re telling me it’s possible to have a full herniation and heal from it? Leigh Brandon (55:42) Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s in it’s Dean Volk, MPT (55:43) Kind of crazy. Leigh Brandon (55:44) inter it’s interesting because I actually have a skin fold where at the base of around sort of L five level where the obviously where the nucleus has come out. So I’ve lost I’ve lost a little bit of height. Which is interesting. But I’m fully functional, is not you know, you know, if anyone saw me playing tennis this year, y like I I played I actually played against the kid and um say a kid, young man, and uh after the match it was it was when it was really hot day and we had a really good match, really tight match and uh He said, what what are you doing for the rest of the day? I I’m going to a concert. He said, who you going to see? I Oh, Lenny Kravitz. And he sort of looked at me, Who’s Lenny Kravitz? Dean Volk, MPT (56:24) Who? Leigh Brandon (56:25) And I said, he was big in the nineties. And he said, I was born in two thousand and eight. Dean Volk, MPT (56:30) Yeah. Leigh Brandon (56:31) And I was like, sorry, no, two thousand and six. And I was like, Oh boy, that’s made me feel really old. But Dean Volk, MPT (56:37) There you go. Leigh Brandon (56:38) but What the reason I bring that up is because physically you wouldn’t have known there was any difference in age between us. Yeah, I was like Dean Volk, MPT (56:45) Right. Leigh Brandon (56:45) forty odd years or almost forty years older. You know, Dean Volk, MPT (56:49) Yeah. Leigh Brandon (56:49) which which shows what’s possible even after such a serious injury. You know? Dean Volk, MPT (56:54) Yeah, and it’s crazy with um MRIs, just what they show and what’s meaningless in what they show. I I think it what is it? Fifty percent of people have some type of dis degeneration by the time they’re fifty? Uh no, eighty percent by the time they’re fifty. Leigh Brandon (57:11) Yeah, I know there’s a study by Booz et al. which I think is a Dutch Dutch team, and they they did a study and it showed that seventy six percent of the adult population have a bulging disc with no symptoms. Yeah, right. Dean Volk, MPT (57:23) No symptoms. Yeah, I I I’m trying to remember there w there was things with the shoulder too, w it was like um slap slap injuries and like seventy two percent of the people that they did MRIs to who didn’t have problems. Now if you went to a doctor and said, I’ve got shoulder pain and they do an MRI and they find a slap tear, you’re getting surgery. Whereas seventy two percent of people naturally have that without symptoms. So I always ask clients now, did they take an MRI or the other side to compare to see is that your normal or not? They said, No, why would it why would a tear on one side be equal on the other? I said, You’d be surprised what MRIs find. And here’s Leigh Brandon (58:07) A couple of years ago I actually missed a whole year of uh tennis because I have pain in my left shoulder. So I’m right handed tennis player. And I’m able to do all the shoulder tests on myself apart apart from label tear. Right. I can’t I can’t really do that on myself. Dean Volk, MPT (58:23) Yeah. Yeah. Leigh Brandon (58:25) But I’ve tested fine to every other thing, so I thought, well, maybe I’ve got a labelled tear. Um but yeah, my right arm is the one that goes through all the s all the stress, right? The right shoulder. Dean Volk, MPT (58:35) Mm-hmm. Leigh Brandon (58:35) Um so may maybe I’ve got damage in both shoulders, but I mean, you know, I’ve played the last two seasons and it’s been absolutely fine. Dean Volk, MPT (58:44) That’s awesome. And you said you’re almost sixty? Leigh Brandon (58:47) Yeah. I think the moral Yeah. Dean Volk, MPT (58:49) You’re still young. Leigh Brandon (58:52) The moral of the story is just because something is damaged doesn’t mean that you have to experience pain necessarily. Dean Volk, MPT (58:57) Absolutely. Leigh Brandon (58:59) Right. And it doesn’t mean that if you don’t have any physical damage that you that you can’t experience pain. Dean Volk, MPT (59:06) One hundred percent, yes. So many people are way beyond the physical damage portion and their brain is still carrying that pain over. In the same way that my son who had the nauseous issue started just telling himself I’m not nauseous and within a couple months, um he wasn’t. Leigh Brandon (59:28) Yeah. Amazing. Excellent. Dean, this has been great talking to you. What what’s next for you? Um Dean Volk, MPT (59:34) what’s next do you mean today or just overall? Leigh Brandon (59:37) You can answer that however you want. Dean Volk, MPT (59:39) Alright, well today I’ve got clients starting in about three hours. and hopefully I’m gonna be growing my online sciatica business more and more just to free me up so I don’t have to go out and see as many clients. So you can find me online under Sciatica Relief Now. Um that’s my main website, SciaticareliefNow.net. If you’re interested in working with me, I do a free three-day sciatica proof lab where you can prove to yourself whether what I’m doing will be able to help you because we work through my approach for three days, you and me one-on-one on Zoom for 30 minutes at a time. That’s the second page of my website, or you can go directly to that at sciaticaprooflab.com. Leigh Brandon (1:00:35) Awesome. Great stuff. Dane, I’ve really enjoyed it. It’s been really great talking to you and it’s always good to hear of uh new things. I always always like to learn something new. Dean Volk, MPT (1:00:44) Well thank you and it it’s been very enlightening for me as well and I appreciate um all you’ve been through and all you’re doing for people as well. Leigh Brandon (1:00:53) my pleasure. So that’s it from Dean and me for this week, but be sure to tune in same time, same place, next week on Beyond the Pain.